Stylish Careers with Sherry and Carmin Black

Tonya:

I have declared that this will be my summer of style, a summer where I intentionally focus on my self-expression, where I am meticulous about the details of my surroundings and how I serve food on a plate, how I create an ambiance that is uplifting and aligned with my future. I want to really spend time deep in the topic of style and what that does for a woman's life, and how it can elevate her, how it can add to her day, how it can affect the people around her. For this reason, I'm doing something I have never done before. I am hosting a private podcast inspired by the iconic Diana Vreeland herself who had a column in Harper's Bazaar that ran for over a decade called Why Don't You? This private podcast is going to inspire you to overcome your limitations around style, help you to step into your authentic style, and just allow you to have your own style renaissance.

So if you're interested in perhaps making this your summer of style, or if style is something that has always seemed overwhelming to you, you have a lot of negative thoughts about your style, or you just want to add a little sparkle to your week, then why don't you join us for this private podcast? All you have to do is go to schoolofselfimage.com/why, and we will be dropping episodes every Monday for 12 weeks. So head on over to schoolofselfimage.com/why. Now, let's dive into this very fun interview that I did on stylish careers. (music)

Welcome to the School of Self-Image where...

Tonya:

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Today is a very special one because if you listened to last week's podcast, I talked about how I want this to be my summer of style. To me, style isn't just about what you wear. It's how you express yourself in all areas of your life. One of the areas that I'm very passionate about, it won't be surprising to you all, is my business. So when I thought about summer of style and my business, this idea baby was born that I wanted to do a podcast episode on stylish careers. I knew that I wanted to bring some other voices into the mix, and the moment I thought about doing this, there were two people that immediately came to mind, and they happened to be family. It's my first and second cousin, Carmin and Sherry Black. So I am so excited to have you all on because I rarely have guests on the podcast, and you two could not be more perfect for this topic. So thank you for being here.

Sherry:

We're honored. We're so excited.

Carmin:

We're so honored. We're so proud of you. Thank you for having us.

Tonya:

You are so welcome. So I want to start this out with Sherry. Sherry is my first cousin. So her dad and my dad were brothers. I don't know if you know this, but you have had such a big impact on my style. I'll never forget, I was probably seven or eight years old, you came to visit and you were one of those family members that I didn't get to see that often because you lived in Germany. I remember you walking through the door and it was like an issue of Vogue had just walked into our little trailer in the middle of nowhere. It was like chic, sophistication, edgy, cool. I had never met anyone like you in real life. I'd seen people like you in magazines. From that day, I was like, you showed me something that I deeply, deeply wanted for myself. So I'm really curious, I don't think I've ever asked you this question, but where did that come from for you? Where did this style that you've always had ever since I've known you, like where did that come from?

Sherry:

That's a good question. I can remember even at the age of four, when I played with Barbies or dolls or anything, the number one thing I wanted to do was just decorate their home. So as I got older, it was my grandmother on my mom's side who was extremely worldly. She had traveled the world. Her bedroom was grass-green bamboo with black the walls were palm leaves, the drapes were matching the wallpaper. The carpet was shag, her bathroom was pink with shag carpet in the bathroom, all pink tiles, dressing table, a phone, her jewelry box. I used to sit in that bathroom and, I mean, for hours, I just wanted to be by myself. I would look in the mirror and I'd try on all her jewelry. Because in our church, the way we were raised, you and I both know jewelry was a "sin".

Tonya:

You should show your wrist now.

Sherry:

Oh. Yes, I do love jewelry. Even being glamorous or beautiful was frowned upon because the more humble you looked, the more godly you were.

Tonya:

Look at us now.

Sherry:

It was a battle. Yes, 100%, completely different. But here's the one thing, when we moved to Europe, I was exposed to a completely different culture.

Tonya:

Yeah.

Sherry:

Fashion was much more... It was simple, but really cool. It's like people just, they live differently than we did in the US. I can remember at 16, my mom was getting her hair done in a village close to where our house was. I used to nanny for actually Fred Francis, who was an NBC news reporter at the time, covering the Afghanistan War. I was his nanny. So he used to pay me $100 a day. At 16, I won't say what year, but it was a while back, I would just save my money. That was a lot for a young girl.

Tonya:

That could be a lot today. So it was a lot.

Sherry:

Honey, yes.

Tonya:

Yes, honey.

Sherry:

I can remember my mom was having her hair done at this salon. I said, "Well, I'm just going to go out and shop a little. I'm going to go check out the village." I found these cream thigh high boots with about a four-inch heel. I'm 16 now and I think, "These will look so fabulous. Like I'm going to look so glamorous," because European style was so ahead with Paris and...

Tonya:

Milan.

Sherry:

... Italy, Milan. Europe, they were fashion for...

Tonya:

Progressive, progressive.

Sherry:

Much more progressive than America was.

Tonya:

Yeah.

Sherry:

At the time, we were so conservative, and Americana. I remember I bought those boots and I was so scared to show my mom. I was like, but I just knew. I was like, they were going to be a hit at school. So I had my thigh high boots. This was back in the late seventies, and I knew then, "I'm a fashion girl." Whenever I went back home...

Tonya:

Did you wear them to school?

Sherry:

Oh, yes.

Tonya:

Did you wear them with longer skirts?

Sherry:

No, I wore them with jeans.

Tonya:

Oh, fab.

Sherry:

Back then, the jeans were so tight...

Carmin:

You could fit them inside.

Sherry:

Girl, I had to lay on the bed, suck in so hard and I'd have to get my mom to come and pull me up...

Carmin:

Yeah.

Sherry:

... because there was no bending.

Carmin:

Yeah.

Sherry:

The only way I stretched out my jeans was finally I'd put my clogs on because I wore a lot of bell bottoms. They were skin tight, they looked so good. I was probably 50 pounds lighter. Anyway, they looked so good. Then I would take my jeans and stuff them inside my thigh high boots and off if I went to school. Then I'd go pass out my bibles to let everyone know about Jesus. But I was just like a progressive Jesus lover. I just love fashion...

Carmin:

You still are.

Sherry:

I love fashion and style and I don't know, it just played a huge part in my life. So I knew at a young age that that's what I wanted to do. My very first job besides being a nanny was in fashion. I knew that if I didn't go into interior design, I definitely would've gone into fashion.

Tonya:

Oh, 100%, 100%. You just made me think about a story. I went and went through grandma's stuff in her trailer. You remember that trailer?

Sherry:

No.

Tonya:

Right behind our trailer. She had this pair of, I don't know where they came from because she probably got them at a flea market because I never saw her wear them...

Sherry:

Right.

Tonya:

But they were a pair of burnt orange, over-the-knee boots with a thick wooden heel.

Sherry:

No.

Tonya:

It was like a find. I decided I was going to wear these to school. I'd never seen anything like it before, because I wanted to be edgy.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Carmin:

Yeah.

Tonya:

There was something in me, but I didn't know how to put the whole look together.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Tonya:

The boots were cool, but the rest of the outfit was terrible. I do remember walking into that school and people just bursting out in laughter...

Sherry:

Oh, yeah.

Tonya:

... at this outfit. It was a complete style fail. But I always say, "You have to be willing to experiment and fail at things in order to figure it out."

Sherry:

Yes.

Tonya:

So...

Sherry:

Well, let me tell you, along those lines, when I moved back from Europe, you were actually my flower girl. So this is so funny that I'm sitting here with you today having a conversation with you on your podcast. What was sad in a way when I came back, especially with church because that was our whole life growing up, was...

Carmin:

Because your dad was a minister. You'd have to explain.

Sherry:

Well, he became a minister later.

Carmin:

Right.

Sherry:

After we moved to Germany, became a minister.

Carmin:

Yeah.

Sherry:

But he was always very involved in church. When I came back, it was very disheartening because people in our church in America was so much more conservative. Right after I was in college, I ended up getting married at a very young age at 18, which was and my dad even said that day, "I'll take you away right now and you don't have to do this." We were in that horse and carriage going around the mansion, and I looked at my dad and I said, "I know what I'm doing. I'm happy. I know what I'm doing. I want to have two children with this man and then we're done." But I knew... Then, we started pastoring in church and the very first week we were there, because I wore lipstick and had jewelry on, and the members of the church told me, "You're tearing this church apart."

Tonya:

Mm.

Sherry:

I said, "I can't help, but just me. It's like my spirit and my soul was so innocent, I just love fashion. I'm sorry." My dad said to me one time at my brother's store in Raleigh, he took me outside and he said, "Sherry," he goes, "If you go into a room and you're supposed to wear red, and everybody knows they're supposed to wear red, and they all wear red when they come to this room, but you walk in and you're in blue," he goes, "It just messes up everything. Can't you just tone it down a little bit?" I wasn't even flamboyant, I was just fashionable because I worked in high fashion at the time, and Norma Kamali just started. Ralph Lauren was just starting. It's like Armani. I was at the cusp of really high fashion, which was really cool. That's what I worked in. I looked at my dad and I asked him, I said, "Well, look around," because we were at the backside of my brother's store, and behind it was a nursery for flowers and plants.

God spoke to me right then and I turned my dad around and I said, "Dad," I said, "Turn around." I said, "Look at this nursery around here." I said, "What do you see?" He said, "I see plants. I see trees. I see flowers." I said, "What else do you see?" He goes, "I see red. I see yellow. I see blue." I said, "Well, God wanted me to tell you something." I said, "Do you know what he wanted me to tell you?" He goes, "Yes," and he looked at me with intent and I said, "God told me to tell you that, 'I made Sherry just the way she is and I need you to leave her alone."

Tonya:

Mm. Preach.

Sherry:

He started, he burst out crying, and he looked at me in my eyes and he knew my heart was pure, but I just loved fashion.

Carmin:

but my outfits weren't.

Sherry:

I know, but God made me this way. I am like... I mean, he apologized to me. It was like from that point on, there was a completely different respect.

Tonya:

Yeah.

Sherry:

Because our fashion doesn't dictate who we really are, but it does...

Carmin:

Reflect.

Sherry:

It reflects on how you feel about yourself.

Tonya:

100%.

Sherry:

It reflects on what others think of you a lot of times. Not that you have to make others think you're wealthy or you're whatever. I think when you're just yourself, it's so cool because who all wants to be the same? Anyway.

Tonya:

The church that we grew up in.

Sherry:

The church we grew up in. Exactly.

Tonya:

You know what's interesting though? Because I do remember you walking in. When I saw you, when I hadn't seen you for a long time, and you, to me, were flamboyant. You were so different than what I was used to seeing in the church and in that small town I grew up in.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Tonya:

So I could see how when people aren't accustomed to something different, and we see it in the world right now, it can feel very threatening.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Tonya:

Like, "This person's so different." But if we just take the time to get to know people and to understand, there's so much to learn. Thank goodness when you walked in, I didn't reject that. I'm like, "Oh, I want a little bit of what she's having."

Sherry:

Yeah, exactly.

Carmin:

It's interesting because at your dad's birthday recently, so I guess, or maybe that was almost a year ago now probably, wasn't it?

Tonya:

Well, no, December. Yeah, it was...

Carmin:

December. Yeah.

Sherry:

December, yeah ago.

Carmin:

It's interesting because when we showed up that night for the birthday, certainly the goal was not to be progressive. The goal was just to look pretty because we're celebrating your dad and we love him, and so we want to try a little bit. As we walked in, there was that feeling of, "Uh-oh, everyone in here is so similar and we're not like them."

Tonya:

Yeah.

Carmin:

"That unspoken thing is happening where they're looking at us and they're trying to be kind, but it's like..." I wouldn't say there was a judgmentalism because...

Sherry:

No. I actually thought there... I just had never seen so much teased hair in my life.

Carmin:

It was amazing.

Sherry:

And with the hairspray was...

Carmin:

It was amazing.

Sherry:

He was making Jesus very proud.

Carmin:

Yes, higher the hair, closer to God.

Sherry:

But everybody was super nice.

Carmin:

They were super nice.

Sherry:

It was super nice.

Carmin:

But it does take a level, I think, of confidence to be part of the masses and approach the intruders with a level of curiosity, which you've always had, and you're so confident. So it's no surprise that the two of you would have naturally magnetized to one another.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Carmin:

But basically what you're saying, I just recently experienced and I was like, I just remember thinking that night, "Oh my God, I'm so different." But until I got here, I didn't feel any different.

Tonya:

Right.

Carmin:

I didn't think I was any different.

Tonya:

I feel like that every time I go back home.

Sherry:

Oh, yeah.

Carmin:

Yeah.

Tonya:

But I think if you do it enough, it just becomes part of the story.

Carmin:

Right.

Tonya:

Yeah.

Carmin:

Right.

Tonya:

Well, I want to talk about you, Carmin, and then we'll come back to you, Sherry.

Tonya:

... because I want to talk about your career. So of course, I think you are super stylish, and how can you not be? Look at your mother. We were talking about, before the podcast, how her and her mom have such similar styles, and I've always loved your, I think if I were to describe your style, it's like effortlessly chic.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Tonya:

You just seem to have this effortlessness, but always look super cool, whether it's a vintage outfit you're wearing, your hair, you just always look so laid back and fresh like you didn't even try. It's the kind of style that makes a lot of women be like, "Oh, I want to know how to do that."

Sherry:

Yeah, and it's so easy.

Carmin:

That's really...

Tonya:

Makes it look so easy.

Carmin:

Yeah.

Tonya:

But when I think of you, I think about your career. I don't know of anyone that has inspired me as much as you have with where you started. I cannot remember. I was trying to remember, was it 200 or $500 that you've started with? $200.

Carmin:

$200 that I borrowed from her.

Sherry:

I just gave it as a joke like, "Yeah, go start something."

Carmin:

Yeah. Yeah. Christian, my brother and I, when we started our first brand, we had no money. I am talking no money.

Sherry:

Didn't you want to buy mugs from Salvation Army?

Carmin:

No, even worse. We went to the dollar store. Here's what's interesting. I knew that I knew that way back then, this is 15 years ago, I knew that one day I wanted to design home goods, and it's now starting to perpetuate and it's starting to become a real thing. We can talk about that and where that's headed, but I just knew that somehow... So my first brand, whenever you purchased a product, seven meals were given to people in need. So in my mind, it made sense like, "Oh, when you're in your kitchen or when you're drinking your morning cup of coffee or when you're eating out of a bowl, you should make that connection, 'Oh, this product also fed someone in need. I'm eating. This is also feeding someone.'" It's like I wanted that very literal connection. I didn't know artisans, I didn't know manufacturing. I knew nothing. So we went literally with the $200 that she loaned us to the dollar store and bought mugs and bowls and tea towels and anything that we felt, look what dad sent in there. Anything that we felt looked cool enough where you would never think it was from the dollar store, we took it home and we basically would stamp or spray paint or just manipulate these products however we could and then sell them as our brand. We would tell people, "When you buy this, this is so cool, every product that you purchase is giving seven meals to a kid in need. Think about that tomorrow morning when you're drinking your coffee out of this cup." These things sold like hotcakes because...

Carmin:

... TOMS Shoes was brand new. I had just worked at TOMS, so I would tell people that. "I just worked at TOMS Shoes."

Sherry:

But tell her what you did for TOMS.

Carmin:

I worked as a public speaker, so I wasn't even in their design department or anything like that, but my job was to go to high schools and colleges. But I also went to Google and I would speak about this idea of combining philanthropy and business, speaking of course, on behalf of TOMS. I'd say, "For every pair of TOMS that you purchase, we will get... A new pair of TOMS is given to a child in need, one for one." We had this spiel we would replay over and over. So I took that learning, turned it into my own brand, but had no idea what I was doing, had no money.

Sherry:

How did the bullet come into play for the bullet necklace?

Carmin:

So probably a year later, we designed this necklace we called our Fighting Hunger necklace, and one day I was at... Nobody in the company was paid at this point. So we were all working for free, just volunteer. So it was myself, my brother, and probably five unpaid interns. They would just work for us in between their jobs. None of us were married, none of us had kids. So we were just like young kids basically doing something. We were at my apartment and my apartment was in this old farm, beautiful, beautifully restored, but this old farmhouse where the top of the farmhouse was my apartment, the bottom was this elderly lady, and we were separated by two different sets of stairs that led into our apartments. Somebody was knocking on the door and I was doing something. So I asked one of the interns, "Hey, will you run downstairs?" You had to go through the living room, down the stairs, around... "Will you run downstairs and answer the door and see what that is?"

They come back upstairs and they're like, "Hey, this is really weird, but somebody said that they go to your church and they heard that you want to start making jewelry for your brand." They said, "What you should do is make jewelry out of brass, but brass is expensive, so take these recycled bullet casings, melt them down, and make your jewelry." I was like, "What? Somebody from my church... Who?" To this day...

Sherry:

An angel, an angel.

Carmin:

To this day, I have no idea who dropped a box of used bullet casings off at my house. How weird is that? So I was like, "That is the weirdest thing I have ever heard. I'm not a jewelry designer and I don't know how to make jewelry, and I certainly don't know how to melt casings down to cast jewelry out of brass." So we shuffled this box around.

All of a sudden, I was like, "You guys." They're like, "What?" I'm like, "Guys, look in this box." So now I know, and I don't own a gun and we could talk about gun legislation all day long because now I know a lot about it, but at the time, I knew nothing about it. When you have bullet casings, a 45-millimeter, a 40-millimeter and a nine-millimeter casing, oddly enough, when they're stacked together, they fit together perfectly and one fits inside of the other. So they naturally, inside this box, were stacking and creating this three-tiered shape. I said, "You guys, look at this." They're like, "What?" I'm like, "What do bullets do?" They were like, "Kill people?" I'm like, "No, bullets fight." I was like, "Guys, what do we do?" They're like, "We sell stuff?" I'm like, "No, guys. We fight hunger. Bullets fight. We fight hunger. Let's call it our..."

Carmin:

... We fight hunger. Well let's fight, we fight hunger. Let's call it our Fighting Hunger necklace. And I was like, "We'll string it on a chain, we'll sell them. And we'll tell people, when you buy one you give seven meals to feed a kid. And this is your symbol of fighting hunger. I was like, "A negative turned into a positive, it's brilliant." And everyone was like, "Carmin, that's so stupid." So we made a few, took them to a local retail store. Now we were at the point at this point in our careers where if we sold 10 of anything per month it was a really good month. We were like, "Yay, we made $200 this month."

So I took these necklaces, a girlfriend of mine owned a shop, she agreed to sell them. She calls me that Friday, she's like, "Carmin, 10 of your necklaces sold." I'm like, "What?" And so, I'm like, "Let me bring you more." And so 10 the next week, 10 the next week and on and on. And these things just sold like hotcakes. They went viral, went nationwide in Nordstrom for years and years.

Sherry:

Stars started wearing them, musicians.

Carmin:

Yeah.

Sherry:

We started going to all-

Tonya:

Let's just think about this.

Carmin:

Yep.

Tonya:

Because I coach a lot of women who are entrepreneurs, they're starting their businesses. And I tell them all of the time, "You have to fail so much to finally succeed."

Carmin:

Yes.

Sherry:

Yes.

Tonya:

And I think about all of the failures that you've had, because I know you. And I know you've had failure after failure, but what was it within you that made you not give up?

Carmin:

I think what it is is that I just always see failure as a stepping stone. And it's like gleaning crops. It's whether or not the crops produce a bountiful harvest, we glean something, we gain something. And in business it's like, "Wait a sec, but I learned so much. Ha, now I'm going to take that learning and all I'm going to do is be stronger with the next thing. Okay, I failed at that, ah, I learned something. I'm going to take all those learnings."

And it's like you just recycle everything that you learn until I think eventually what happens, you never arrive. People that say they've arrived, they're crazy. But what happens is, is if you keep at it, it just starts getting easier. You keep failing, you never stop failing. You're-

Tonya:

Right-

Carmin:

... going to fail at new things all the time, but the things that you failed at before, now you're not going to fail at again. And when you do that enough times, it starts clicking. And that's where I'm finally, after 16 years I'm at that click point where I'm like, "Ah, I know how to do this pretty efficiently because I failed so many times."

Sherry:

But you have to try.

Carmin:

Yeah.

Sherry:

If we had not tried I knew they were never going to make money off of mugs from a dollar store. But I knew that if we kept plugging at it, and they started seeing a prophet, so if they doubled their prophet then doubled that prophet, and then they were able to do a little bit more, then more, and then they end up with their own space, they end up with their own products, the products sell in 800 different stores around the world.

Carmin:

We've sold to thousands of retailers. I think our biggest retailer ever probably was Nordstrom, simply because they put us nationwide.

Tonya:

Yeah.

Carmin:

And we've also worked with Target, Wegmans, Whole Foods.

Sherry:

In the boutiques all around the world in Japan, Japan-

Carmin:

Japan, Panama, Italy, everywhere. But then I actually closed that business and it went down a blazing flame of glory. And really, it was a fault of my own why it went down. And I can either go into that or not, but I learned a lot from that and now I've risen back up and I'm just-

Tonya:

Well let's talk about the rise, because I know about that failure.

Carmin:

Yeah.

Tonya:

And it was a mistake that any of us could have made-

Carmin:

Yeah-

Tonya:

Right? And we can talk about it or not. But in doing business, you do a lot of things that you don't have the knowledge, you don't have the people around you with the knowledge and mistakes get made, right? And that's how you learn. But I think about your rising from that.

Carmin:

Yes.

Tonya:

And how you had to go through that to be where you are now. And so why don't you tell the audience what you're doing now, which is amazing?

Carmin:

Yeah. So it's so interesting-

Sherry:

This is so good.

Carmin:

Yeah, it's so interesting because I do want to hit on the failure a little bit. And I like to talk about it, not to be self-deprecating but because I just want people to feel that good or bad, no matter the choices that you make, I just feel like every choice will lead you to a good place. I just really feel like that, everything always works out for your good.

Sherry:

Even if you can't see it.

Carmin:

Even if you-

Tonya:

Yeah-

Carmin:

Even if it's your own doing, even if it's the stupidest thing you've ever done and you even knew better, it still always lands you in a good place.

Tonya:

Yep.

Carmin:

At Half United, we had been selling jewelry that we had manufactured by a U.S.-based manufacturer. During COVID they outsourced our manufacturing to China without asking us. And when we got those products in and were selling it to hundreds of very large retailers, Free People even being one of them, the stuff was tarnishing on the shelves. So I called the manufacturer, who I loved these people, we would joke around and hang out. I would say like, "Hey, when I come to Rhode Island to visit you guys I'm going to stay at your houses," and was not kidding.

And basically I said, "Guys, this stuff is tarnishing. We're having cancellations left and right. What is going on? You guys need to fix this." Well, they tried a few times and we appreciated that. But ultimately they basically came to the conclusion, "Look, fixing this problem is going to be more expensive than it's worth. So, we're not fixing it. And actually, we're suing you for none payment." And I'm like, "Guys, if somebody goes to a," I don't know, "A sandwich shop and they order a sandwich and you give them moldy bread, they can't say, 'Well just because you gave me a sandwich I'll pay you for my sandwich.'" It's like, "No, this bread has mold on it. I can't. I'm not paying. I can't pay for this, it's not fair." "Sorry, I gave you a sandwich. You didn't ask what kind of sandwich."

So it was that circumstance, so they sued us and of course we fought it, and we tried and tried and tried, and ultimately it just took us out. We just could not fight any longer, because the dent they placed on our cash flow was very significant. I won't get into that, but here is the point, on paper that's why we failed, is because of a manufacturing defect. The truth of why we failed is because I believe, and this went back years prior, my own, how do I say this? What's the word? Maniacal drive to succeed. And I had decided years prior, no matter what this company does, we are going to rise to the top. If our giving seven meals per product sold has to suffer, we'll give later. We'll give when we have the money to give.

And so what I started doing was making a justification for growth at the expense of our mission. And we would land massive orders, like, "We're going to get paid 400 grand for this order. And instead of giving money to feed kids in need we're going to hire that fancy marketing firm, or that COO and they're going to help us grow so that we can give even more later." That's what I know was the real truth about our failure. The law suit was just a reflection of what had started happening in my heart.

So here's why I'm so glad I failed, because it is such a saving grace. And so for anybody out there that's like, "Wait, that's me" girl, let that man, whoever, let it happen. Because what happened was I had to really face, look at myself in the mirror and come to terms with God and say, "I did that." Everyone can blame the law suit, everyone can give me a pat on the back for trying so hard, I know that it was me that had gotten off track long before this happened. And here is what's so beautiful, thank you, God, I will never do that again.

So, about a year before we closed and I saw the writing on the wall and we were just sliding down and down, I was approached by Magnolia. And the team from Joanna Gaines said, "We really love your handbags. We really want to partner together, how can we make this work?" And I said, "Listen," I didn't tell them this at the time-

Sherry:

But they saw you at market.

Carmin:

Yeah, I met them at a trade show when the slippery slope was just sliding down and down. I met them at a trade show and they said, "Hey, we really love your style and we really love your products. We'd love to work together." And I was like, "This is amazing." So we started talking, it became a more serious thing, I started developing samples for them. And because I could see the writing on the wall of my first brand ending. I said to them, "Listen, if we launch together I think what I'm going to do is start a new brand. I'm going to call it Carmin Black, just like any designer brand. And I want you guys to launch us under that label, can you do that? And they said yes. And so I knew even before the end of Half United, I was like, "God, I see what You're doing. I see this redemption story playing out. I see how I've got to lose it all. I never-

Sherry:

No-

Carmin:

... should have had to lose it all.

Sherry:

No.

Carmin:

I know I have to lose it all, but thank You. I see that You're not going to let me lose everything. You're going to bring me back, and I promise if You give me this chance, I will never go back to that person I had become." And so the chance was given and now we're working on our third collection with them. They're reviewing samples literally this week, as we speak. And then I designed a hair-band product that I think is now going to be in 2000 CVS stores. And so that's launching this fall. And I'm like-

Sherry:

We're going to send you some.

Carmin:

Yeah. I'm like-

Tonya:

Yes, I want all the things.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Carmin:

And I think after this, Home Goods may be in our future. Gainfully employed people, I'm still passionate about. I'll be in Kenya in August. I'm working on ways, I see little dots connecting to make that possible. My mom, it's good timing with her and I see an interest in us working together. So there is just so much redemption happening and I'm just so thankful.

And again, just going back to what we want to tell people listening, it doesn't matter who caused the rift in your life, the failure, the setback, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it was you or if it was other people or things out of your control, the weather, whatever. It always can be used for your good so just never, never give up.

Sherry:

Never.

Carmin:

Never give up.

Tonya:

Well that's the trait I have always seen in you. And that's where the thing that you so beautifully shared, and thank you for your vulnerability, but the thing that you have attributed to the failure can also be a beautiful thing, that drive, that ambition. And I also believe life is about contrasts and sometimes we have to experience the pain of looking at ourselves in the mirror so that we know, "Okay-

Sherry:

Hello-

Tonya:

... I need to course correct. I've been talking about it all year because I've been out of what I call my sweet spot. And for you, I know your sweet spot is when you are channeling that ambition and combining your love of philanthropy with design, with business, that's your sweet spot. And when you started to negate one for the other, you started to feel it and then the results were shown, too. You're like, "I got to course correct."

And I think that's part of business. I think no one is on a straight path, always doing it perfectly. We're going to make mistakes, we're going to screw it up. And I love this conversation because I'm sure people listening are like, "Yep, that's where I am now." And I love how you've framed it, use it for you.

Sherry:

Absolutely.

Carmin:

Absolutely.

Tonya:

Use it for you.

Carmin:

That's one thing I think I learned from some of my greatest mentors, some men, some women. But they have all had much more elaborate and successful careers than I have achieved yet. But they taught me in business and probably in life, too, every little molecule is there to teach you something. Use everything to its maximum impact, everything, anything, whether it's a hard lesson, whether it's a networking opportunity, anything.

Sherry:

Explain that.

Carmin:

Well I think in the case of what we're talking about here is failure. Many people would have looked at what I was facing, it was really tough, we're talking lawyers involved. I hate anything dramatic and messy. I hate gossip. If you want to gossip with someone, do not call me. I'm so bored with that kind of stuff, I'm like, "No way." And so anything messy and toxic, and challenging, I just run from. Well that's all that was filling my life for about a span of a year or a year and a half.

And so if you are a person like me and you're facing all of these challenges, employees quitting left and right, and people that said they would never leave leaving, and the bills and the vendors, and the complaints, it was a lot. And I think other people may have just thrown their hands up and buried their head in the sand and said, "Forget it." I kept saying, "No. I know that this is teaching me what not to do. I know this is teaching me. I know I caused this. I know I can do better than this. I know I'm going to remember this next time." And so it's like, "Just squeeze the life out of anything you're facing for your good."

Sherry:

Yeah.

Carmin:

Yeah. Let's talk about you, Sherry.

Sherry:

Oh, and what do you want to know?

Tonya:

Well, tell the audience what you do and then we want to hear about your failures.

Sherry:

Oh.

Tonya:

Because stylish careers come with a lot of-

Sherry:

There is-

Tonya:

... failures-

Sherry:

... so many. Well, I'm an interior designer and furniture designer. I've been designing for 20-plus, less years. I've done projects around the world. But one thing, I've never ever advertised. I have the worst website. I have the worst Instagram. I won't say the worst, but it's not like Kelly Wearstler. It's not where every day there is four different posts or whatever where you can see what I've done. But I have had the most amazing jobs that any designer could ever hope for.

Okay, so I'll back up a little bit. So I first started my design career in Hawaii when we lived there. And the day that we left, we did a drapery install. And then my ex-husband had made a decision that we were now going to move to Alaska. So I went from Hawaii to Alaska. Now at the time in Hawaii, I worked, well full-time, but only for a couple years, for Gucci. And I started my interior design business at the same time I was working for Gucci, so I had good clients to have as my first clients because of where I worked four days a week.

Anyway, we ended up moving to Alaska. I went, "Oh, my God, my interior design career is gone, it is down the tubes. This is like Northern Exposure." I'm like, "I'm going to Hooterville." Like, "This is going to be as bad as Chadbourn." So we went to Alaska-

Carmin:

You better watch out because you never know who is looking.

Sherry:

I love Alaska, there is a lot of money in Alaska.

Carmin:

And Chadbourn-

Sherry:

I love Chadbourn, don't get me wrong.

Tonya:

They're talking about my hometown in case anyone is wondering.

Sherry:

So, yeah I do get scared when I drive there but it's okay. Anyway, hey, I'm just joking. Well, I won't 

Tonya:

It's okay if you get scared.

Sherry:

Anyway, in Alaska, I can remember, I was like, "How am I going to get a job?" Because we moved there because Randy agreed to take a church. And this church, they paid the maximum amount of money that a pastor could make. But Alaska is actually very expensive. And I didn't want to just stay home in the dark all the time so I got a job.

And so the people at the church took me to the employment office, which I've never been to in my life. I was embarrassed, I was like, "I should not have to go through the employment office to get a job." Well I was humbled on that, and I'm not going, the woman goes, "Do not move." She looks around, she goes, "Do not move, we don't get people like you very often." I went, "Oh, my God, where are we?"

Carmin:

You should have said, "I will not move." I found $20.

Sherry:

"Make it quick, girl." Anyway, they come back. I end up getting a job with Sears Corporation. Sears at the time, was changing the look of Sears. And I worked with designers and architects from California. We bought this building that had been an ice skating rink, a movie theater and a bowling alley. Because the existing Sears store was a little house that sold snow blowers, shovels, picks, rock salt, canoes. Now I'm coming from Gucci to this store that was selling Carharrts, okay? Carharrts, Levis and some snowblowers, and I was in a Gucci skirt, a mink coat, a black turtleneck and my leopard pumps. And I walk in and they were like, "Oh, my God, who has just arrived?"

Well it ends up, we did change the look of Sears. I did all copper ceilings, mahogany cabinetry, we did brass railings. We did marble floors. I would bring a grand piano in on the weekends. And I convinced them also that I needed to be in charge of the music for the store and that we needed some good jazz.

Tonya:

Also, this is fascinating, I have a really quick observation, slash, I want to get your thoughts, both of your thoughts on this.

Sherry:

Okay.

Tonya:

Do you think you would have gotten that job had you walked in not being Sherry Black? Meaning not stylish, not dressed the way you were dressed. Because the way we show up is attracting certain things.

Sherry:

Absolutely.

Carmin:

Yeah.

Tonya:

And you attracted this opportunity. How much-

Sherry:

Absolutely-

Tonya:

... do you think your style played in that?

Sherry:

A hundred percent. Personality, let's say 50-50. No, it was probably 80-20. And that's why she made the comment, "We don't get many people like you," which scared me. Because it had been night all day long, in the winter. We got there when it was 50 below zero, from Hawaii to 50 below zero and a nine-foot polar bear at the bottom of the escalator.

Carmin:

I remember that polar bear.

Sherry:

I was just, "Hell." I was like, "Where has he brought me? It's frozen. Hello"

Carmin:

It was hell, I'm not going to lie.

Sherry:

I never unpacked. But anyway, I did help change the look of Sears. It was a great opportunity that I had. And from there we ended up only staying in Alaska for a year. And we ended up moving to Raleigh, closer to my parents at the time. And my brother convinced me to open two restaurants. Why I did it, I don't know, but I thought, "Oh, this will be so much fun. I can decorate these two restaurants." And I had-

Tonya:

So you opened a restaurant just so you could decorate them?

Sherry:

Oh, yeah. Well that wasn't the only reason, but my brother wanted me to sell my cheesecakes because I make really good cheesecakes which I've never made since we left Hawaii, and I never even made in the restaurant. But

Carmin:

But we had great cheesecake.

Sherry:

Oh, my God.

Carmin:

You may not have made it.

Sherry:

I didn't know anybody in Raleigh. And within two months I was signing contracts with Smedes York from Cameron Village to open two restaurants in the city market in the most famous part of Raleigh. So I came up with this concept, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to do a coffee-house tea-room combo. And then I'm going to have a restaurant and the bakery in the center." And the bakery and the restaurant will be both sides.

So I end up doing this, I end up finding people in Durham that roasted coffee. But he was also head of Encore Magazine. And he ended up, after being with me for a month, he was like, "I'm going to do a review on your restaurant before you ever even open." And he goes, "We have never done this in the history of the magazine." And it ended up being the cover and two full pages inside, that they interviewed me before we ever even opened. And because my concept was is that I wanted people to walk in and love the food and the atmosphere so much that they didn't want to leave. Which in the restaurant business is not a good thing because you need to flip those tables.

So it ends up where I had end up with 25 employees. We start winning design awards for the interior. I've won two years in a row, because on the third year I sold it. We sold in two days, which was the fastest real estate sale in Raleigh at the time. And people were trying to buy it before I ever even put it on the market. And I had brokers that were trying to buy my concept because nobody had ever done a coffee house-tea room combo, combination. I didn't take them seriously. And this was before Starbucks came-

Sherry:

Take them seriously. I really, and this is before Starbucks came to the East Coast, Starbucks was still in Seattle. But this is how I came up with this concept, by living in Alaska, I would go to Seattle to keep my sanity and do buying for the store. And that's where I fell in love with the whole coffee house concept.

Tonya:

Yeah.

Sherry:

As soon as we moved to Raleigh, I was like, "Okay, I'll do it." And we did it, I mean, it was so beautiful and so cool. And like I said, when we finally decided to sell, it sold in two days. And then we end up coming to Wilmington and I was like, "Oh my God, what am I going to do?"

Tonya:

And look at you now.

Sherry:

I know. And so when I, after I sold that, came back here, I ended up working in the movie industry for two years. And then I took a year off, and then I was like, "I'm going to go into interior design full time." So I ended up getting a job with the most successful architect probably in America at the time. They interviewed me and then we went on a walkthrough on the couple of properties that he was working on. Michael Moorefield at the time, he ended up getting very sick and is not working any longer. But anyway, I went with them on these walkthroughs and I was like, "It seems like going down the hallway these sconces are off a little bit." Because in interior design, details to me are the most important things in a house, whether it be your air register, vent cover, your light switch plate cover, your faucets, your light fixtures, blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, it ends up where we did this walkthrough and she goes, "No." She goes, "I'll have to measure again." Sure enough it was, it was off. So we ended up leaving, going back to the office. And they were leaving to go to Charleston that weekend and they said, "When we get back on Monday, be here at the office to start." I was so excited. I quit the movie, my movie job, and I walk into the office on Monday and they said, "Sherry, we've been talking about it." They go, "After we worked with you on Friday, and your question to us, how many projects do you have going on right now?" They said, "We didn't really know. And over the weekend we went over all our projects and we have over 13 projects going on at the same time." Because a lot, they had just not put them all in one bowl.

They were just doing a project then a project, not realizing how much they had on their hand. They said, "We feel like if we add an interior design office to our business right now, we're going to shoot ourselves in the foot." And I was like, "Well, you just shot me in the wallet." I didn't say that to them, but I was devastated. And I can remember walking outside in the middle of Front Street and I started crying, because it was early in the morning, nobody was there. And I raised my hands, I was like, "God, what am I going to do?" I have two children, I have no job right now, and I just thought I landed the job of a lifetime. And it ends up the same week somebody else called me. And then I just started getting project after project after project. And yes, there were some failures in the list of projects I had going on at the time, but there were also huge successes.

And I ended up meeting one woman, Dee Dee Shaw that owns Monkee's. From Monkee's. I started designing all the Monkee stores. I started designing all of her houses, and their hunting lodge, and the farmhouse, and then their friends wanted it, and it snowballed. But had I not been fired, well, I wasn't fired, I was barely hired at Michael Moorefield's architectural firm. Had I done that, thinking that was going to be the greatest pinnacle in my life, because I can do design for people that actually have money and aren't on a budget. And it ends up God gave me those clients, but I would not have gotten them had I stayed with Michael. I just took a risk. And that's another thing in business, you have to take risk in order to see, for things to come to fruition.

If I didn't take a risk and say, "You know what, I'll take this one job, see where it takes me, and then pray to God something else came rolling in on the next thing." It just always has. I'm not saying that I'm the luckiest person in the world, but that's just what's happened in my life. But it's from reputation. It's like, I work very hard for my clients, especially when I get to be with them when we're working on a project. When you're far away, it's very difficult sometimes. But I can just say that had I not had failures in my life, I wouldn't be where I'm at now. Now I'm designing furniture, and we're doing huge jobs, we've done tons of restaurants, and my next thing is a hotel. And we're traveling to India working on furniture designs now, when she's working on her handbags. I've got an incredible manufacturer who's become family to us. Who is going to be making furniture for us and sending antiques in for us to sell here in America and around the world. So, anyway.

Tonya:

You know what's interesting though, and I always tell clients is, I'm like, "The problem is if you think you know the how, you're going to be disappointed, because probably that how isn't going to be how you ultimately do it."

Sherry:

Right.

Tonya:

If you thought this architect firm was going to be how you had an interior design career. And then that failed, or you didn't even get started, it sounds like.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Tonya:

You didn't really got the job, then you're screwed, because you're like, now I have nowhere to go. But if you realize, and I love what you were saying, Carmin, everything is a stepping stone.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Tonya:

Even the failure. And I know sometimes if you're in the middle of a failure, it may not seem like it, but on the other side you're looking back, you're like, oh, that thing had to have happened in order for me to be where I am today.

Sherry:

Let me back up a little bit. So when that happened with Michael, I was like, "What in the heck? What am I going to do?" And so while we were in Raleigh, in the city market or all, it's like a village. It's all these tiny little stores, and then huge restaurant Big Eds, and then Art Space, which is an art gallery. And I ended up meeting this woman, Susan Warlick, who was a professor at NC State and she taught art, but her focus was on...

Carmin:

Faux finishing.

Sherry:

Faux finishing and restoring castles and frescoes throughout Europe. That's what her specialty was. And people would fly her to England, to France, all over the world to restore frescoes. In Europe, you'll see all the artwork on the stone walls or inside castles on ceilings on the walls, and so she would be the person that they would call to do, one of the people to do restorations. And she just happened to have her workshop in...

Carmin:

The city market.

Sherry:

The city market in Raleigh. So she came to me, because we used to give them food and coffee for free, and she came and she says, "Would you like me to help you with your walls?" I said, "Yes. I have this vision. I want them to look like red leather." And she's like, "I've got it." She goes, "I'm going to teach a class and we'll use your restaurant for the wall. We'll use your walls for our template." So they came in to get that one color, it started out orange, then purple, then a brown, a raw umber over it to get this amazing red. Whereas most of the time, people would probably go to Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore, put red paint on the wall and pray it looked like leather. It's like so true faux finish, if you're a purist about it really is mixing...

Carmin:

Pigments or something.

Sherry:

Yes, pigments, and oils, and thinners, and stuff, so I was so curious about it. So anyway, I got really good at faux finishing. So when I lost that job with the architect, or it didn't start, I was like, "Oh my God. Well, maybe somebody needs faux finish work." I walked in this boutique, which ended up being my store. I walk in, it was an interior design firm, and this girl just fell in love with me. And she goes, "Look." Because I said, "If you ever need faux finish work." She goes, "Well, I work with this guy from this company called FeeFiFaux." And he goes, "He's looking for help." And I said, "Oh my God, I can help him." So my first job, so he comes in interviews me, he goes, "Oh, yeah." He goes, "You worked with one of the best in the nation." Susan was incredible and he knew about her, and he's like, "Yeah, I'll hire you. If you worked with her, I'll definitely hire you." So the first job was the Mattress King family in Greenville. Isn't in...

Carmin:

I remember you doing this house.

Sherry:

Yeah. They were in their thirties and they were building this 10,000 square foot house.

Carmin:

Was it in Landfall?

Sherry:

No, this is in Greenville.

Carmin:

Yeah. Okay. Okay, now I don't remember. I remember....

Sherry:

ECU, and he's a huge ECU guy.

Carmin:

Yeah.

Sherry:

Yeah. So anyway, I ended up getting this job, and because I wasn't working with Michael Moorefield, so I ended up doing this faux finish thing. And just started, that ball started rolling. And then that's when I met Dee Dee, and I told Dee Dee, I said, "Dee, Dee, I'm not really a faux finisher. I'm a designer." And I said, "But nobody knows me since I've moved back to Wilmington." And I said, "I'm starting from the dirt up."

Tonya:

Yeah.

Sherry:

She goes, "Well, I like your dirt." She says, "Well, I'm going to give you your first job, in here." Because I'd started in Hawaii, remember. I ended up getting that job and had I not taken a little trail, gone off the trail just a bit with the faux finish work, but at the time, that was a huge trend. So I was very successful with that. And then the interior design jobs started rolling in, and it's just never stopped.

Tonya:

All those years later. That's really interesting, because I call that experience stacking, or you can call it skill stacking.

Sherry:

Yes.

Tonya:

Where you don't understand it at the time, how it's all going to fit together, but there will be a moment where you look back, you're like, oh, this is why I met this woman and I learned about faux finish. Right?

Sherry:

Yes.

Tonya:

So I have two more questions before we wrap up, because I'm thinking about two types of women. We have women who may have creative ideas, they're entrepreneurs, they're really wanting to start a stylish career. And to me, a stylish career is any career that uses creativity, which we could argue all of them do. What advice would you give to a woman who is at the beginning of this journey who's like, "I have a really great idea, but I don't really know how to get started, what to do?" What would you tell them? From two women who really started with just ideas. Who didn't have the formula of how to do this, but you figured it out on your own. What advice would you give those women?

Sherry:

For me, the first thing would be to learn how to create a budget. Well, in interior design, most people think, oh, the most exciting thing is picking stuff out and making things look beautiful. When in reality, interior design is really a lot of paperwork. So it's a lot of cancellations, it's a lot of shipping issues. It's a lot of the company telling you that the product is in stock when it really isn't in stock, and then they'll tell you it's on a boat. It'll be here six weeks later, instead of when they told you it was going to be it the first time. For me, if somebody out there is interested in interior design, the most important thing to me, number one, is to learn the business side of the business before you start picking out the pretty things.

Because it is a lot of paperwork. They're weeks sometimes months, I never leave my desk to go look. When I first started and I was doing small little houses, I would go to all the stores in town to look for things. After opening accounts with all the manufacturers directly, I never walk in a store anymore. I deal with everybody that either I met, or have accounts with at market, or companies that I've come into contact with around the world. And so I go directly through them, at this point in my career, rarely am I ever in a store.

Tonya:

That's such great advice, because I think when you are creative, you just think about the creative part. It's like, I can't wait to decide. I can't wait to pick out all of the things. But there's also the business side that if you don't learn that...

Sherry:

You can do pretty houses and make money from month to month. But when you want to make real money, the business side is the most important thing. And also, a lot of people may have gone to school for interior design, and I'm not putting that down. I never graduated from...

Carmin:

Design school.

Sherry:

Design school. When I was at NC State, I was majoring in Japanese, but I would go to the interior design classes. But then I started getting work, so I was like, "I'm already working, so I'm not going to finish." Luckily, it worked out for me. Not to say that school isn't important, but I think another thing is that, you either have it or you don't.

Carmin:

Yeah, I think that's what I would ask somebody. If we're talking about somebody that is not even in business yet and they're like, "Oh, I just have this idea. I want to do this." I think for me, my first question would be, why do you want to start your own business, like why? And I think the answer to that question, in a minute can tell us whether or not you'll succeed. So whatever your motivations are, I think determines the level of success that you're going to have. And I think too, if I had to meet somebody that said, "Oh, I want to start a creative...

Sherry:

Design handbags.

Carmin:

I want to design handbags. Yeah, I mean, definitely the first question would be, but why do you want to design handbags? And there's no right or wrong answer necessarily, except to say, if someone says, "Well, I just want to be really rich and famous." That's the wrong reason to start a handbag company for, and I cannot guarantee you'll ever become rich or famous. And then I think too, it's just I would want to understand, what's your level of resiliency? How comfortable are you with being told no, or you're stupid, or your ideas are weird. Or knowing for a fact that everyone around you, not everyone, but a lot of people around you, including those closest to you, are always talking trash about you.

It literally is just happening.

Sherry:

Not us.

Carmin:

Yeah, no, but I mean, it's happening, and you have to have, maybe you don't have to have an awareness of that, but if I tell you, "Hey, it is going to happen to you, how comfortable are you with that?" And if somebody can answer these preliminary questions with, "Listen, I don't care. I've got it. I'm going to rise to the top. I'll go through, I can put up with anything, withstand anything, overcome it all." Girl, you've got it. Now the rest is just, let's figure out what you want to do and how to fit the puzzle pieces together. But if all of those things, if a woman or man, I guess, said, "Oh, I don't want to deal with that or that scares me." Or, "I need a steady paycheck or whatever." Probably not the best idea to go into being an entrepreneur. You may be awesome and very talented, but you may not be an entrepreneur.

Tonya:

Yeah. And that's such great advice, because I believe when your why is big enough, we can teach resiliency.

Sherry:

Absolutely.

Tonya:

That's a skill you can learn. And if you're why's big enough, you're willing to go through all of it. But if you are creative and you just want to focus on that, and you don't want to deal with all of the BS of being an entrepreneur, maybe the best fit for you is to work for someone else.

Sherry:

Exactly,

Carmin:

Yes, and those people are so needed. Oh my gosh, they're so needed. All of us have special skills and talents that are needed. And in big ways and in small ways, every single person is wired for success. Every single person is not wired for entrepreneurship. Some of us....

Tonya:

And what's successful to one woman may look totally different than what success looks like for another.

Carmin:

Completely, and my opinion, and I don't know if the two of you will agree or disagree, and no offense to any of us, but I believe that entrepreneurs make really horrible employees, like really, really bad. I'm a terrible employee. I cannot....

Sherry:

You are?

Carmin:

Yes. I just always want to be in charge. If I'm working for somebody else...

Sherry:

You want to be in charge.

Carmin:

I keep climbing up, and it's better I just work for myself.

Sherry:

Yeah. You challenge the status quo. We don't like being told, we don't like being there every single day in a routine manner. We need a lot of space for creative thinking. This is not good for the corporate environment. So it's just we're all wired differently, and we all are wired for success, but what it is to one person, shouldn't be what it is to every person.

Tonya:

Right. And thank goodness, this is what makes the world such a beautiful place.

Carmin:

I know.

Sherry:

Totally.

Tonya:

It really does. So that was one part of the question, the other part of this question is for the women who are in what they may consider to be a non-stylish job, meaning they're not an art design, but they're going to an office or maybe they're a stay at home mom, and they are working but they want to bring style into their careers. What would you suggest for them?

Carmin:

Everything. Everything. Every moment, every interaction in your life can be chic and stylish.

Sherry:

I say start with your hair. Get a cute little hairstyle going on.

Carmin:

I say, start with your inner man. Have joy no matter where, no matter what. Find the fun, the creativity, the joy, the life in it.

Sherry:

Some people need better hair to have some joy. So I think.... Because if you feel good about yourself, you are going to be more joyful.

Carmin:

I definitely do agree with that. I definitely do agree with that. When you look better, you feel better.

Sherry:

Even if you don't have money to say, buy a new wardrobe, make sure the wardrobe you do have is pressed, and clean, and...

Carmin:

Do not believe this advice.

Sherry:

No, I'm just telling you, here left side, this side. No, I'm telling you that the way you feel about yourself, if I look good in my clothes, I'm going to feel better at my job. Or if my hair looks horrible, if I have a horrible hairdo every day, you're not going to feel as confident. I'm telling you.

Carmin:

It's a hundred percent true, and I definitely agree with you, but I do...

Sherry:

The days you walk in the office and I look at you and I go, "What were you thinking?" Did you come in from your exercise...

Carmin:

That's because my inner self feels beautiful.

Sherry:

I'm like, you're making my vibe, you're bringing my vibe down.

Carmin:

Okay. It's a mix of internal and, I think if internally we can find creativity and life in any moment, any...

Sherry:

Let's take away from personal. Say you have an office job and you do want to feel more fashionable.

Carmin:

Say you're a bank teller.

Sherry:

No. You work in an office.

Carmin:

Okay, I'm just saying.

Sherry:

Google, you work for somebody.

Carmin:

No, that's very exciting. No, that office...

Tonya:

I love this mother-daughter interaction.

Sherry:

You work at an accounting office.

Tonya:

Okay. Perfect. Let's go with accounting office.

Carmin:

Okay, good.

Tonya:

Okay. All those accountants out there, God knows we need you.

Carmin:

Yes. Love you.

Sherry:

But maybe bring flowers to sit on your desk.

Carmin:

Have a beautiful space, have a beautiful desk, have beautiful surroundings, love your flooring. Situate yourself so that you can see out a window.

Sherry:

Well if they're at a cubicle, they're at a cubicle. Just fresh flowers, number one, are going to make you feel, it'll make you feel happier when you sit at your desk. But to look good as well is going to make you feel much better at work.

Carmin:

It is.

Sherry:

You're killing me.

Carmin:

No, it's a million percent true. Have a joyful attitude, so you bring life into the room just by your very presence. And then if you are working in a cubicle, which many, many people, many brilliant people do...

Sherry:

Look at the Devil Wears Prada.

Carmin:

Exactly.

Sherry:

When she first started working. When she started dressing, I mean, yes, she went through her little jealous friends, but she was...

Carmin:

She was brought to life.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Carmin:

It is important. Yeah.

Tonya:

Yeah. There's something about what you were saying about maximizing earlier, like maximizing everything that happens. To me this is a concept of maximizing who you are and what you have. And it doesn't matter where you work, what you do. It's like, how do you bring your biggest essence into that space. And how do you create the space so that it represents that and it's mirroring it back to you, whether it's flowers, whether it's maybe you've got some soft jazz playing in your office. But really creating the space that is giving you that feedback of like, this is who I am. I don't care if I'm in town in office or if I'm even working as a nurse. Let's think about that, because where I worked. I would put my lipstick on, I was doing the best I could with what I knew at the time.

Tonya:

... gone. I was doing the best I could with what I knew at the time, but I always was thinking about, "How do I express myself in these scrubs?"

Carmin:

Yes, absolutely.

Tonya:

There are always opportunities. It requires you to be creative.

Carmin:

Right.

Sherry:

It does. And you know what? I really feel... And the older I get, the more I believe what I'm about to say... We all have the power to basically dictate the mood in the room, always. People don't think they do, but we all have the power-

Carmin:

Absolutely.

Sherry:

... to either add life and value and joy and fun and creativity just by our mere presence or suck the life right out of it. Because my grandfather was just in the hospital and some of the nurses that come in made the room feel bright and fun and joyful and lovely. And some of them made it feel like we were in a nasty hospital room, which we were indeed in.

And so, I just think it is this mix. You're saying funny things, and I know you're a person of depth, so it's just funny the things that you're saying like it does really matter how you're exhibiting what you believe about yourself on the exterior but, at the same rate, if you can also be that vibrant, beautiful person on the interior, this is a really powerful mix.

Tonya:

No, that was very important, but you could take a woman who has never really gone to a salon, maybe she's cut her hair herself or gone somewhere, when she has that first haircut that somebody that really knows what they're doing-

Carmin:

She's brought the light.

Tonya:

... And she sees that person in the mirror that is so different than the person that walked in to have the first haircut, it does make a huge difference. You see she walks with her shoulders back, her head's higher, she's proud of how she looks versus walking in feeling frumpy and not put together. Not that you have to be put together all the time. You can still look chic in your workout clothes, a cute little ponytail and put on some lip gloss and you've changed the whole vibe of... And then add a cute purse even with that, and it changes how you feel around other people as well when you feel good about yourself.

Carmin:

Totally.

Sherry:

Listen, I love you, and Sherry thinks we should all get our hair cut. Go find a great haircut, which I think is... You're 100% correct. It can change how you feel about yourself. And I love what you said, Carmin. It's about... To me, style starts on the inside.

Carmin:

Right. It's true.

Tonya:

It's like that's where it starts. Even the way you walk into a room, the way you greet people, the way you communicate, it's all a part of your style.

Carmin:

Absolutely.

Tonya:

And so, I think we all need to ask ourselves, are we showing up in a way that really represents who we are at the core? And for some of us, that means getting a new haircut. I just got mine cut. Do you-

Carmin:

It looks good.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Tonya:

You like it?

Sherry:

Really good.

Carmin:

It looks great.

Tonya:

Okay.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Tonya:

I have to get the Sherry approval.

Carmin:

Yes, it's 

Tonya:

It's like the hair connoisseur...

Carmin:

It looks.

Sherry:

It really is. I'm serious.

Tonya:

Awesome.

Sherry:

I mean, you really are.

Tonya:

All right. We're going to wrap this up with three questions that I have for each of you. This is going to be like a rapid fire.

Carmin:

Okay.

Tonya:

Because at the School of Self-Image, we have three pillars. We have mindset, style, and environment, our surroundings. So the first question for you, Sherry, what's one thought you wish you could gift to everyone?

Sherry:

Don't get caught up on the small things that you may feel are holding you back.

Tonya:

I love it. Don't get caught up on the small things. What about you, Carmin?

Carmin:

Oh, okay. What was the question?

Tonya:

What's one thought you wish you could gift to everyone?

Carmin:

I genuinely believe anything is possible. Anything. Anything is possible, anything. So yeah, if you'll believe it, it is. I really-

Tonya:

So good. So good. Okay. This is around style. If you had to wear one outfit for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Carmin:

I know.

Sherry:

I wear it every day. I wear all black every day. I work with so much color that after 10 years, black's just my thing. So-

Tonya:

That's part of your signature style.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Tonya:

I don't think I've ever seen you in anything but black with a bright red lip and your wrist full of bangles.

Sherry:

Yeah. That's my style.

Tonya:

I love it. What about you?

Carmin:

Great perfume. You have great perfume. I would wear also black, but a black slip dress and a cashmere sweater over my shoulders. Chanel? Like a blazer?

Tonya:

Yeah.

Carmin:

Oh, I would love a Chanel blazer. My, God. I mean, hey, let's upgrade. If we have to wear it every day for the rest of our lives-

Sherry:

Well, that's what she does, yes.

Carmin:

I love a blazer. I always have loved a blazer. Blazers are good for me.

Tonya:

I know. I've looked at both of you. It's like black and white.

Sherry:

Yeah, you look like you're in Chanel.

Carmin:

I always love bold prints and bold colors and bold this and everything, and I love that. And then when I look at myself in photos, I'm like, "Oh, God."

Sherry:

No, you look beautiful.

Carmin:

See, I think the more simple, like the more Japanese level of simplicity that I wear, the better I look.

Tonya:

Yeah. The more you feel like yourself.

Carmin:

I do. And I think that I just... Yeah, I do. I really feel like myself. So I would do a slip dress and either a really great blazer or a cardigan over my shoulders, and that's good to go.

Tonya:

Okay, last question. This one is about your environment. If your home was a person, how would you describe their personality?

Sherry:

Oh, my God. If my home were a person, it would probably be...

Carmin:

Your home would be Iris apple. And I know she's got-

Sherry:

Iris apple.

Carmin:

I mean, I know she's not saying a specific person, but actually her home, the way that Iris apple always looks super chic, but it is extremely gaudy. And gaudy like the architect gaudy, like layer, layer, layer, layer, everything, everything, more is more. That's her house.

Tonya:

So maximalism. I love it.

Carmin:

It's the most-

Sherry:

But it's-

Carmin:

It looks beautiful.

Sherry:

... It's curated.

Carmin:

It is.

Sherry:

I love modern furniture, but I also have Louis XIV and a few... I have artwork from wall to wall, ceiling to ceiling, floor to ceiling, wall to wall, and even on the-

Tonya:

But would you say the personality is bold, vibrant, eccentric? How would you describe...

Sherry:

I would say eccentric.

Tonya:

Eccentric.

Sherry:

Eccentric, but still with simplicity. I will tell you, when I go home, I don't want to leave. I love it.

Carmin:

No, there is no simplicity. There's zero simplicity.

Sherry:

To me, it gives me air.

Carmin:

It does give you air, but there's no...

Tonya:

For her, it's very simple.

Carmin:

Her home is an absolute reflection of who she is as a person. Nothing is simple.

Sherry:

Hey, look. This is going to be-

Carmin:

Yeah, show her your purse today. This is great.

Tonya:

Oh, let me see the purse.

Sherry:

Oh, just wait.

Tonya:

Oh, how adorable. What is that? Like a half basketball?

Sherry:

Yes. I thought it was a glitter basketball, but it's not. I was like, "I'm going to tell Tonya I brought my change purse."

Tonya:

I love it.

Sherry:

Yeah, but this look... And I have on my black Gucci loafers and just all black. And this is my pop of color.

Tonya:

I love it. So good. What about you, Carmin? Because we are in your house right now.

Carmin:

You're in my house.

Tonya:

Well, you're in your house. I'm looking at it.

Carmin:

Exactly. What is mine? How would-

Sherry:

I would say your house is... chic.

Carmin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Sherry:

It feels like a hotel.

Carmin:

I don't... Well, a great hotel.

Sherry:

A great... Like a boutique hotel.

Carmin:

A boutique hotel. My home feels like a boutique hotel.

Sherry:

It does.

Carmin:

And it's interesting 'cause when I travel, I only typically stay... I mean, I wouldn't mind the Ritz, but I only typically-

Sherry:

You do love it.

Carmin:

... stay in really cool, like-

Sherry:

Boutique hotels.

Carmin:

... lovely... I like things that are lovely. I want to walk in and every single detail, every nook and cranny floor to ceiling has been thought of. That's how I like to live. And that is definitely how I live.

Sherry:

Right.

Carmin:

Yeah. So...

Tonya:

Lovely.

Sherry:

Yeah, I love it.

Tonya:

Thank you both. Why don't you tell the listeners where they can learn more about you?

Sherry:

You go first.

Carmin:

You can find me on Instagram at Carmin Black, the brand. My first name is spelled C-A-R-M-I-N. And you can also find me on Carminblack.com.

Tonya:

And you can find her products, her handbags, at Magnolia's.

Carmin:

At magnolia.com. Just type in Carmin Black.

Sherry:

And new ones are coming. They're so beautiful.

You can find me on Instagram at Sherry Black Designs and Sherri Black, Sherry with a Y, and info@SherryBlackDesigns.com. And I promise I can change your life for the better.

Tonya:

Thank you all. I love you so much.

Wasn't that fun? I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I loved catching up with my cousins and talking about what goes on behind the scenes. I think we're so used to seeing people's successes and we don't often get to peek behind the curtain to hear about all of the failures that people go through.

And as it relates to style, style is all about creativity. And we can be creative in how we approach those failures. And I loved what Carmin says, using them as stepping stones to what's next.

So after we finished up the interview, we kept chatting for another hour. So much fun catching up. And there was a moment where Carmin shared something that I thought, gosh, I wish that was in the interview. And I realized we were still recording and it all came out of her obsession with Mr. Rogers. And so I'm going to share that with you 'cause I think it'll be very, very insightful, and I cannot wait to see you on next week's episode. So here it goes.

Carmin:

So I've developed this obsession with Mr. Rogers, okay? And the reason I'm obsessed with this man is because I just have started studying his life, his values, his career, his family relationships. And the man had it figured out. Everything wasn't great in his life. He had a very tumultuous relationship with one of his sons who... I just went to Nantucket, and they say that this son, even to this day, is actually very challenging to get along with. So it's no surprise that Fred Rogers would've had that same experience, even though it was his kid.

But he says this thing that I just have really started to adopt. He says, "I am convinced that deep and simple is so much better than wide and complex." And it's like what we were all just talking about privately, that I think when you're younger, you want breadth and you want to spread your wings, and you want your tent stakes to be wide, and friends, and the events, and the thing, and the blah, blah, blah, success. And I think now, what I've found is success can still be very deep and very, very simple. It doesn't have to be a massive amount of things, and opportunities, and friends, and events, and whatever. You can still find success, and much better long-term sustainable success, when it happens in a simple way and when there's a lot of depth to it. That's what I'm doing now. And so, your question was, well, how does that manifest in my life? For me, that manifests now with me saying no a lot. I say no to opportunities, for example, that can make a lot of money.

And so what I do is I break down my business into, basically, pillars. And so I'm like, first pillar is most important. Then I've got my next two pillars, which are pretty darn important. And the last pillar is filled with a bunch of stuff that at any moment that I need to, I can cut any one of these things.

Tonya:

What are your pillars? Can you share?

Carmin:

Well, I mean it's very specific to mine, so other people would have to make it as specific. But one is CVS, one is Magnolia, one is QVC. These are my most important pillars right now. So CVS, 2,000 stores. Check. Got to have that. Magnolia, very awesome opportunity. If this grows, who knows what this could morph into. Got to have that. Check. And then QVC, I'll be on QVC in February.

Tonya:

Oh, that's exciting. Have you watched the movie or the show, Hacks?

Carmin:

No. Do I need to?

Tonya:

You must watch the show immediately.

Carmin:

Okay.

Sherry:

Well, she's on CVS. That's why she's always showing her things on CVS.

Tonya:

She's on QVC.

Sherry:

Or QV... Yeah.

Tonya:

QVC. Okay.

Carmin:

It's Hacks, Hacks, Hacks.

Tonya:

It is a brilliant show. Brilliant. The writing is so good.

Carmin:

Oh, good. I'll probably learn a lot from it.

And then my fourth pillar are a bunch of random things. So things like jewelry design. And there's this company I could possibly do something with there. That, I could take or leave, even though it's a great opportunity.

T-shirt design. My own handbag line, should I expand my own website and sell wholesale and all this stuff? Or should I just chill on the fame and the fortune. And CVS, QVC, Magnolia.

Sherry:

That's huge.

Carmin:

No, they are huge. But it's like there's a temptation because Magnolia, I'm designing against their wants. QVC, I'm designing against their wants.

My own line, my God! This could be anything and everything and it could be so cool. But is it really going to be sustainable, make the most money, and will it be the most simple? No. It's so complex.

Sherry:

Does it bring you peace?

Carmin:

No. It-

Sherry:

Then don't do it. If it doesn't bring you peace-

Carmin:

I mean, it does bring me peace in a way, but it's a very complicated... The fashion industry is very complex without the large customer base that has that constant demand. And there's a few other little projects-

Tonya:

I love that though. Deep and simple will beat out wide and complex anytime.

Carmin:

And Mr. Rogers, that's all you want to be.

Tonya:

Yeah, 'cause I will tell you, my desires have changed as we were just talking about. All the events being here, being there, I just don't want any of that anymore. I want to focus on my main... I mean, I didn't realize there were pillars, but I have three main things that I want to be focused on.

Carmin:

Me too.

Sherry:

Yeah.

Carmin:

Me too.

Tonya:

That's it.

Sherry:

And they say... Okay, who was it? Margaret Thatcher? Or there was some... I know it might not have been Margaret Thatcher, but it was... Or maybe it was Estee Lauder. I can't remember. I'll have to go back and look.

But it was three main goals in life every single day, and no more per day than six important to-dos. You can't really accomplish in a day more than six things. And so, if we could all just rest-

Carmin:

Yeah.

Sherry:

... not... Yeah, you really can't. You just start fumbling around. Now, if you've got a big team and you can delegate, all right. But I mean, you've got to have six things you're delegating, even if they have a hundred things beneath them. But three main goals and objectives, six good solid to-dos per day is the recipe for success.

Tonya:

I just had this conversation with my team because we have this other thing that we could be doing, and I was like, "No. Like we have these projects, like all eyes on this. Like this is something we can do later, but it's just going to be a distraction. It's not aligned with where we want to go this year." And what's interesting in the membership, I have members choose one goal for the year, just one.

Carmin:

Wow.

Tonya:

And it needs to be a goal that is going to demand enough of them that they need to change their self-image.

Carmin:

What have some of their goals been?

Sherry:

Yeah, what-

Tonya:

Oh, my God. It's everything. It's some's around health, some are around relationships, some women are like, "I'm going to write a book this year." Some are like, "I'm going to meet the love of my life this year." Some are, "I'm going to make my first hundred thousand, my first million, this year." It's all over the board. But it's important that it's a goal that aligns with their soul. Not a should goal, but a goal that's like, "Wow. This is something that I have wanted, but I've been afraid to want." And it has to be something big enough that they're going to have to change their identity in order to create it. I mean, because you think about how your identity has had to change to create what you've created.

Sherry:

Oh, yeah.

Carmin:

Oh, my God. My identity changed as of yesterday. Listen, I just... Okay. I was putting this vision board together and my husband, I said, "Listen. I want us to share this vision board, not because we're the same person, but..." I'm like, "Look. I want us to see visually how our visions align." And thank God, they align very effortlessly.

But there was this one picture, this beautiful picture of this house on a hill and this massive pasture with 50 horses. And I said to Zeth, I said, "I can't imagine owning 50 horses. Can you?" He says, "Yes, I can." And I said, "I love that." I said, "But I don't know what it is." I said, "I just know the amount of stable hands you'll have to have, the amount of stables, stable stalls, the hay, the cleaning...

Sherry:

Build.

Carmin:

... the cleaning. The..." I said, "I understand logistically what it takes to have 50 horses, and I know the amount of money it would take to support that, just for leisure and pleasure." And I said, "Zeth, I just can't imagine it." He goes, "That's exactly why we need to have this picture on this vision board." I said, "You're right."

And so, it is that thing of constantly stretching yourself. And it's like that idea of a choke on a...

Sherry:

A bridle?

Carmin:

No, no, no. Yeah, on a bridle as well, or on a dog leash, where it's like, "I can imagine having three horses, but I choke at 50, or I choke at four, I guess."

Tonya:

Would you want to have 50?

Carmin:

I mean, really no.

Sherry:

No.

Carmin:

I don't really want to have 50 horses.

Sherry:

Will's family has a horse farm.

Carmin:

But I don't-

Sherry:

They have a lot of them.

Carmin:

... But I don't want to have the limited mentality that says, "I could never have that. I can never imagine that." I want to at least imagine it and be able to... Or one day have the option to say, "Nah, that's not for me." But I don't want to be the person that says, like I was yesterday, "I could never imagine that."

Tonya:

That's so good because I think you have to have the ability to at least imagine it, to be able to decide, is this a good goal for me?

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